Allow me to restate my position. I do not have the authority to tell someone how to make a choice in life and neither does anyone else. The exceptions are parents and the state in public health and safety areas. Canuck, you have declared that you feel that you can make other's decisions for them. This ability stems from a perceived moral superiority on your part. This is where we differ.
My perceived moral superiority moral comes is derived from a desire to let people make their own choices and even mistakes. A person should be taught responsibility (how is a topic for another discussion.) and should pay for any harm caused to individuals or society at large. Free will is an important part of our society and should be protected. This does mean that people are free to invent the wheel chair and have sex. People are free to get pregnant or buy cars. There are consequences to every action. If someone were to perform an action that is deemed harmful to society, then they should be punished. This is why we have a legal system. These learned people determine whether harm has been caused and exert a suitable punishment. Barring certain science fiction scenarios, abortion is not harmful to society. The great and unholy act of gay marriage, or marriage in general, shall be discussed at a later date.
Canuck, your perceived morality stems from a position of claimed authority. According to your comments, you know better than others how to handle questions of morality and thus should be allowed to dictate actions. I do not know the source of your morality but I am curious. You have claimed that you are not a Christian, so I remain curious. Your handle indicates that you might descend from those crazy socialists known as Canadians. If this is so, why do you even care what goes on in a moralistic debate of such a pointless topic for your political life? An American decision about the legality or morality of abortion won't have any import for foreigners until we have run much further down the Great Big List of Reasons to Bomb Other People. Furthermore, your claim that only liberals have abortions is completely ridiculous. If you were able to prove that, I might never blog again.
I derailed a bit at the end. I really don't understand why anyone cares if someone they don't know has an abortion. What does it matter?
47 comments:
Chuck, I do not feel I am making decisions for people by believing abortion is wrong. We have laws saying murder is illegal, yet we allow women to murder babies everyday in the name of pro-choice, aka abortion. You want to allow that, fine, let the American public vote on it via states rights and see what happens.
I have never stated ONLY Liberals get abortions. However, since it is liberals who believe in them I do believe they will start to dwindle in numbers. Should conservatives keep having abortions, their numbers would also dwindle.
Declaring I believe abortion is immoral is not declaring I am telling people what do to. I also believe child molesting is immoral and wrong, I suppose that is forcing my beliefs on perverts who harm children, however, I digress. I did not force any two people to have sex. Why should an innocent baby be killed because two people had sex and got pregnant? How am I in any wrong standing up for a voice not being heard? You seem to want to do this song and dance in avoiding calling abortion what it is, it's murder of an unborn child. Plain and simple. You and I both started out the exact same way babies being aborted started out. Period.
According to WomensIssues.About.com 88% of abortions take place when the baby is between 6-12 weeks in the womb. By 12 weeks of age the baby is (According to Webmd.com) fully formed. Has arms, hands, fingers, feet and toes and can open and close its fists and mouth. Fingernails and toenails are beginning to develop and the external ears are formed. The beginnings of teeth are forming. The baby's reproductive organs also develop, but the baby's gender is difficult to distinguish on ultrasound. The circulatory and urinary systems are working and the liver produces bile.
We do agree on one thing -let people make their mistakes and have to live with them. When two people have sex and the result is a baby, then so be it. Also according to womensissues.about.com here are the reasons women gave as to why they had abortions:
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.
Sounds like a whole lot of people running from responsibility.
I have to question how you feel abortion is not harmful to our country. What has made you decide this? What were these "science fiction scenarios"?
If saying abortion is wrong some how makes you feel I am saying I am morally better than you, then fine. That is how you feel.
You asked where my morality comes from -it comes from believing there is a God. A God who set rules for us to live by. A God who set rules because He loves us, not so He could ruin our good time.
Also, I used to be a Canadian, hence the handle. I am now an American.
So Chuckles, there you go.
Canuck
Uncanny, since you do not believe in God, where do your morals stem from? Would you commit a murder/steal if you knew you could get away with it?
You don't believe babies in the womb have a soul, shame. At what point in the womb does a baby have a soul? I suppose one would have to believe that babies are souless in order to perform or have an abortion. Also, at what point to you believe a baby to be a baby?
Canuck
Catholics do not believe they should stop having sex, only the priests; same with buddhists. However, should liberals keep up their rate of abortion, (since 1973 just under 50 million americans have died via abortion) they'll pretty much be keeping themselves low in numbers -just like priests and buddhists.
Canuck
4:14 PM, January 17, 2006
Canuck, currently Italy is the only country in Europe featuring negative population growth. America does not need to worry about aborting itself out of existence. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in this argument.
By your own quote, 88% of abortions are performed before the baby is fully formed. Once again, I restate my position that the internet is not the best source for proof.
Your definition of running from responsibility is curious. Without asking for whom you vote, do you tend toward the candidates that are labeled conservative or liberal, Canuck?
Uncanny, since you do not believe in God, where do your morals stem from? Would you commit a murder/steal if you knew you could get away with it?
What a tremendous leap in illogic. Belief in God has nothing to do with obedience to the law. That is one of the basic failings of your belief system that has shown through in this discussion, Canuck. My morals stem from our system of laws and governance. Despite their basis in some of the Ten Commandments (nothing at all about Idols or coveting), the people that wrote the constitution, bill of rights and other early laws wanted religion left out of state matters. That is why there is a separation of powers clause. Religion and the Divine Right of Kings had led Europe into abysmal conditions and the writers were sick of it mixing with the state.
You can not argue against people who believe a tumor is equal to that of a human baby. (And Uncanny, a Teratomas does not have moving arms or legs or a spinal cord OR *gasp* grow into a human, you dolt) You can not argue against people who believe that if the law said today to go ahead and kill those with brown hair that it would be okay to do so. To base your morals solely on what "law" says is sad and very scary. Even if you took God out of your feelings of abortion, abortions is still the killing of an unborn baby. (And yes, I realize you don't believe when a sperm and egg meet it becomes a baby. Apparently babies just mysterious appear in the womb)
As for Italy, small country compared to ours. They have just under 59 million people and abortion is legal -any wonder why they have a negative birth rate?
As for the reasons women gave for having abortions -they stand true. Very, very low percentages are for any kind of medical reasoning.
So, I propose what I have proposed before, let each state decide what they want for their state. That should make everyone happy. You get to keep your abortions and those of us who want to preserve life can keep doing so.
Forgot to sign my name on that last one...but you knew it was from me.
Canuck
Would you commit a murder/steal if you knew you could get away with it?
we already done did it!
That is a new tact for you. Previously you have said that all abortion is wrong, but now you are saying that it is a states rights issue. I'll accept that as it is.
I have no data on whether or not Italy's declining birth rate (which is a measure of briths versus deaths, like a net profit for a company as far as I know) is not simply a single factor issue. I would be willing to bet that it has as much to do with women havng children later in life, marriages occuring later in life and emigration as t does abortions. I don't know. I read an article in Scientific American (I think, it was a while ago) that was discussing birth rates in Europe. They are falling all over Europe, but the populations are remaining stable, from my memory of the article. I'll look into this more later.
I'll say it again, abortion is not happening in numbers that affect our population in such a drastic way as you are saying, Canuck. The Uncanny Canadian is saying that there are tumors (teratumors) that mimic the growth of an embryo into a fetus. He is also syaing that until an embryo has a CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM AND A BRAIN, it is not a baby. It is a bundle of cells that has the potential to become a fetus. If it can't survive outside the womb, then it isn't a baby. In my opinion (and that is all it is at this point), a baby is something you hold in your arms and a fetus/embryo is something women carry in their wombs.
Are you a pacifist, Canuck? Do you attend anti-war protests? If your morals were consistent, you would. I hope you do.
As for Italy, small country compared to ours. They have just under 59 million people and abortion is legal -any wonder why they have a negative birth rate?
I am secular and allow abortions, and my positive population growth rate more than makes up for the italian negative.
War and abortion do not equal. Since this country was born, all wars put together, the American soldiers who have died (under 900,000) do even touch the number of abortions (under 50 million) in this country (1973-present).
Comparing war and abortion is like saying belly-lint is the same as oranges. In your logic I would expect you to be against abortion. I hope you are attending pro-life rallys.
Also, in the second month of pregnancy there is a neural tube (brain, spinal cord and other neural tissue of the central nervous system) that is well formed. The digestive tract and sensory organs begin to develop and bone starts to replace cartilage. You stated that if it can't survive outside the womb it isn't a baby; babies aren't suppose to survive outside the womb at 20 weeks of age, but doctors are saving them. There are women who want abortions at 18-20 weeks, does that make it okay? A human is a human is a human. I know you and Uncanny and people like you want to believe other wise, but the fact remains, it is a HUMAN.
I realize that Roe will not be turned over tomorrow. However, there are steps that can be taken to slow down abortion, maybe even eliminate it. Perhaps before getting abortions women should have to see what it is they are killing. Hear the heart beat, watch it move. And why not, it's just a bunch of cells anyway.
So, Chuckles, do you still think you can change my mind about abortion? I know I won't be changing yours.
Canuck, so you are saying that war and killing is okay until it reaches the number of abortions you state? Furthermore, what about all the people killed by our soldiers in war?
Where are you getting your numbers anyway? I found these with a google search for "casualties in american civil war":
Total Killed or MIA: 1,198,444
From:
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/cwc/other/stats/warcost.htm
I included 2000 for the current Iraq war. I will restate my hesitation to use digital documents as primary sources. They can be wrong more often than a book because there is less accountability.
If someone else does not think it is immoral to have an abortion, why do you feel the need to run out and tell them they're wrong? That is still the difference between us. You think you can force someone to act the way yuo believe is right, while I respect your right to believe in your God but do not support your position that you have a God-given moral superiority. I think your position that it should be decided by states is also incorrect. I think that medical procedures should be regulated for safety but not for activity. I don't think the state should be able to dictate what someone does to their body as long as it does not cause a risk to the public health.
As a rebuttal to your claim that a fetus is a human. How do you define human? Bonobos and gorillas can learn sign language and communicate abstract concepts to researchers. They miss dead pets and mourn dead relatives. Are they human?
canuck seems to be in kool-aid city. i doubt UC and Chuckles' unneccesarily reasoned arguments are going to make an improvement in her convoluted view of the world.
in a democratic society that promotes education and enlightenment, one would think that the people can think for themselves and decide what is right or wrong without the need for invoking a superhuman omnipotent/present/scient construct that creates what i call in my professional opinion, 'a big daddy dependency'. so religion does not have to be the bedrock of morality. in fact, the very obvious moral flexibility of many high-profile religious leaders undercuts the belief that we need a solid moral ground on which to stand.
i thought this was settled and that we no longer lived in the freaking dark ages, but now i wonder.
I thought you had heard, AIF. We are moving back into the dark ages. Bush is spending ridiculous amounts of money on a crusade for oil and the Walton family is trying to dismantle the public education system of the USA. Our leaders are being increasingly shown to be corrupt, although it appears systemic in the Republican party and individualistic in the Democratic party, and no one cares about the citizens. What is a person to do but work toward a new renaissance?
Uncanny, at what point in a pregnancy would you define life?
I would like to think most of the world is moral, even if there are those who believe abortion is okay. And even those who believe in abortion can be moral in other areas of their lives, heck, I'll even go as far to say they are over all good people. Just so we are clear (even though it wasn't asked) I don't believe in blowing up abortion clinics, I do not believe in hunting down and killing a doctor who performs abortions. I do believe that as a society we have bought into the lie of abortion -that it's okay. (And I especially love how you guys have.)
Uncanny, you gave a very good scientific arguement. However, we don't take a brain dead person and suck them through a vacuum. That person had a chance to live their life already. Once they die they receive a proper burial.
Also, do you respect religion? Do you respect the fact that I do not believe in abortion because of religion? Do you respect that fact that many people do not believe in abortion because of religion?
If calling me a kool-aid driker makes you feel better about having abortions, then so be it. Also, Chuckles, I expect to see you out at the pro-life rallys since you are so against war -good for you. Also, if you look at that number you threw out you will see that number also includes those wounded, not just the dead. I don't care about other people war has killed, we aren't talking about abortions in other countries. Furthermore, I do not lump abortion in with war - two completely different topics. I simply stated those numbers since you brought up the whole war thing.
So, dear Chuckles, still think you can change my mind?
Canuck
Chuckles, I don't feel the need to tell people they are wrong; I feel the need (especially those who call themselves Christians) to talk to them and remind them of what they believe in. There is nothing wrong in talking someone out of abortion -just as you are so eager to talk them into it. I have condemned no one here, I have never stated, "TURN OR BURN!!" I have simply stated my side.
Canuck
i called you a resident of the kool-aid city. what that means, since you need to be spoonfed everything, is that whether or not you drink the kool-aid,
'twas I that called you a resident of the kool-aid city and not UC. what that means, since you need to be spoonfed everything apparently, is that whether or not you drink the kool-aid, you are affected by everyone around you that already has.
speaking of whether it makes me feel better or worse, when exactly DID you stop beating up your significant other?
and lastly, religion has its place in society but it was decided 400 years ago in this country that it is not in the books of law.
The uterus should be state property... So long as the testicles and penis are, as well.
A rebuttal, for your perusal:
Uncanny, at what point in a pregnancy would you define life?
I am not speaking for him but I think that a human fetus is alive if it can live out side the womb. Marsupials are being left out of this.
A human is a human is a human. I know you and Uncanny and people like you want to believe other wise, but the fact remains, it is a HUMAN.
I don't care about other people war has killed, we aren't talking about abortions in other countries. Furthermore, I do not lump abortion in with war - two completely different topics.
Canuck, do you see how you have just completely invalidated your own position? You just negated your human argument and equated deaths in war with abortion. I am stunned, I thought we all were getting somewhere, but I must have been wrong.
As a point of information, I did subtract the wounded from the total. That is why I wrote Total Killed or MIA:.
You may feel the need to try and talk people out of abortion, but your previously stated position on this issue is that it is a states rights issue and should be decided by the voters in each state. As long as each state votes unanymously to ban abortion then you won't have denied anybody the right to make their own decision about a personal medical procedure. Otherwise, you are forcing your religious views on another American which is bad.
I have not said that you are a turn or burn person. I have repeatedly said that your perceived superiority of your morals comes from you belief in your particular brand of deity.
I ask the question again: Where did you find this number of 50 Million abortions performed since 1973?
Chuckles - Planned Parenthood says just under 46 million abortions have taken place in the US since 1973. Some sources say that number is closer to the 50 I quoted. Since I know Planned Parenthood is a source of more of your liking, I will go with that. Still doesn't change much.
Anyway, me saying abortion is not equal to war does not invalidate anything I have said. I have a feeling war is yet another topic we would disagree on.
Uncanny, you did not answer when a baby is scientifically human enough not be aborted.
Chuckles, when you say a baby is a baby when it can live outside the womb, is that with or without the aid of doctors? If your child was premature would you throw it aside since it would need the help of doctors to survive? Or would you do everything in your power to make sure it lives? I would like to believe you would do the later.
In all honesty I feel as though this conversation has exhausted itself. I feel abortion is wrong, you don't. I feel states should have the right to vote on it, I'm thinking you don't. Either way, we are both on complete opposite ends of the spetrum.
Canuck
And Chuckles, if you took this kind of energy and time into the conservative blogs you visit, you wouldn't get banned. ;)
My boys! I am so-o proud of you for setting the Jesusfreak straight!
Yeah AG, it's too bad you couldn't contribute anything worth a crap to the conversation except to boo the Jesus-freak. We all know how much religion scares you, thanks for showing just how much.
Your favourite,
Canuck.
Uncanny, thank you for all your imput.
Even though it didn't change my mind, it was very informative.
Canuck
Canuck, nice argument, really! You know so-o much about me and religion that your statement is so true.
You should be on the debate team or something because they really need someone like you. Ha!
Hahahahaha, Pinko. No, really, I get jokes. That made me laugh.
Poor AG. Don't hide your hate for religion. It's not like anyone will condemn you for it -not even me.
The point that I was making, Canuck, was that you state that all human life is equally valuable because it is human life and then apparently said that different values apply to people in other countries because they are not us. That is inconsistent morality. All I have really learned about you is that American blastocysts, embryos and babies are more valuable than the lives of citizens in other countries. I don't understand this position.
I also think we are getting to the polite forms of "Fuck you, you ignorant ass." part of this discussion, so why don't we let it drop.
Chuckles, I didn't say people in other countries lives weren't important. I said I didn't care because our discussion was not about them. The numbers I quoted you about war and abortion had nothing, nothing to do with other countries. I was sticking to just our country. So, chill out, relax. Stick to the topic at hand -The United States of America and our views on abortion. Geez, you start bringing in other countries and we'll be growing old together. And really, do you really wanna grow old with me? Didn't think so. ;)
You made the comment that all human life is valuable. I am just asking you to either stand by that or drop it completely. Either all human life is valuable or not all human life is valuable and then you need to justify why some humans are more valuable than others.
I know you and Uncanny and people like you want to believe other wise, but the fact remains, it is a HUMAN.
I don't care about other people war has killed, we aren't talking about abortions in other countries.
How is abortion in another country acceptable to you? These two statements are inconsistent. Could you please explain your position so that this is cleared up?
Well, Chuckles, I didn't know we were talking about the world and war, and the world and abortion. YOU threw out the off topic of war and how many people in the world have died because of it, I simply said I did not care for that topic at the time since that is NOT what we were talking about. So, I guess I am guilty of trying to stick to the topic.
And yes, all human life is valuable. Sometimes war is needed to protect it.
Anything else I can clear up for you?
When I asked if you attended anti-war rallies, I was making the point that your morals are inconsistent. I still am. Either all human life is equally valuable or it isn't. I want you to tell me why one human life is more or less valuable than another.
Essentially, the abortion argument is about the value of what you perceive to be human life versus what I perceive to be human choice over their lives. (As the embryo has no capacity for consciousness it has no say. It is still a collection of cells.)
My morals are not inconsistant -and I have answered all of your questions.
Do you not believe life is valuable and war is sometimes needed in order sustain it? (Perhaps you should start a new thread about war.) If you do not believe in war why do you believe in abortion? I'll tell you why. Because. they. are. two. completely. different. things.
Mmmmm, lunch.
CANUCK, READ WHAT I AM WRITING! YOU made the claim that an embryo is a human life. YOU made the claim that all human life was valuable. YOU are now making the claim that war is acceptable. War involves taking human lives. I ask you again, how are these two positions consistent. If all human life is valuable than war can never be acceptable.
Chuckles, I am sorry you do not understand how war and abortion are different. Let's try this...abortion is the result of two people having sex that produce a baby and war is the result of evil people. I have never thought of abortion as evil vs. good but if that helps you understand my stance, then so be it. I'm not sure how much more I can dumb this down for you. Like I said, perhaps you should do a separate post on war since abortion and war are two completely different issues.
And Chuckles, where did I say, "all human life is valuable."?
Canuck
Canuck is so smart. She should be president. Oh wait, we already have an idiot for that. Never mind.
Sorry, my bad. I see I wrote it just a sentence above, however, I had never stated it before hand. I suppose it was the quesiton of do I find all life valuable and in the mindset I was in the answer was yes. However, there people who's lives are not valuable -eg. those who child molesters. However, I do believe, for the most part, human life is valuable. Don't you?
And hey, AG, I would even be so stupid as to ask you to be VP! You know, to make sure you keep me in line so can abort your children.
Hey, Chuckles, my fingers are wearing down from typing so much, let's just say we'll meet up later and go a few rounds then. Just go to the place where everyone knows your name, and I'll be there.
Canuck
AG: Back off, I hoped we could stay out of the 'fuck you, you're a moron stage', but you seem determined to go through with it.
Canuck: what the hell are you talking about?
Chuckles, at this point I don't know. I just don't know. One minute it's abortion, the next, war. It's like a never ending circle. Can we just say we're done? I feel as though my fingers have never typed so much in their life (and they've had a long life).
These conversations are better done face to face because of so much that needs to be said, wouldn't you agree? Well, face to face with a lot of hours to burn. :)
Anyway,I do appreciate you allowing me to state my side. I appreciate you stating your side. For now I will politely back down and say, thank you for your (and the others) time.
(If you really feel the need to continue this you can send me an email address to contact you. I just don't feel there is anything left to say.)
Canuck
I think he wants you to meet him at Cheers, where Norm will take his side; they'll tag team you into accepting that women should be forced to bear children they never wanted just 'cuz the state says so.
Actually Chuckles I never said fuck you or you're an idiot to Canuck.
I simply suggested she should be President and then I retracted it becacuse the Bushcobagmuffin currently has that role.
so canuck, would you abort a war if it was conceived as a result of 2 people getting their freak(literally or metaphorically) on?
just trying to save you some typing time, that's all
I guess everyone should become homosexual and have babies in test tubes to avoid any unwanted pregnancies.
Canuck, I believe this should cover your abortion issue.
I still don't understand how it is anyone's business but the person undergoing the procedure. If a person does not approve of abortion, then they won't have one. How does another's decision infringe on Canuck's right to not have an abortion?
what if people who have an abortion get sterilised at the same time. it is like murderers are put away or zapped so they don`t re-offend
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